Riding the Wave: Real Talk on Grief

Grief doesn’t follow a script—it moves like a tide, showing up in waves after a funeral, a breakup, a move, or one of those “little deaths” that catch you off guard. We sit down with Jason Scimemi to unpack what the five stages actually look like in real life and why they aren’t steps to climb but places you revisit as triggers surface. From secondary losses—the empty side of the bed, the missing routine, the lost safety net—to the way anger can feel powerful yet stall healing, we get honest about how people truly move forward.

We dig into coping without numbing, including why avoidance seems protective but keeps pain stuck. You’ll hear simple, practical tools for the days when feelings hit out of nowhere: grounding through the senses, naming emotions, calling someone even when you don’t want to, and letting presence do the heavy lifting. We challenge the hierarchy of pain that shames people for grieving a pet, a short relationship, or a job, and we draw a clear line between acceptance and approval—acceptance means facing reality, not feeling happy about it.

If you’re supporting someone, we offer language that lands with care instead of platitudes, plus ways to be there without trying to fix what can’t be fixed. And if you’re wondering when to seek help, we map out the signs of feeling stuck and point to resources—from online and local groups to individual counseling—so you can find the right fit. Grief reshapes attention; it asks us to notice what remains and to practice connection when it feels hardest. Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review telling us one small practice that helps you ride the wave.

 Explore the various services available in our community to support parents and students facing social and emotional challenges at  https://chs.clarkston.k12.mi.us/counseling/emotional-support

For Talk It Out episode questions contact David from Giesken Counseling Services - Clarkston at 810-626-5191.

For Parenting Under Stress episode questions contact Trish from Ellie Mental Health - Clarkston at tbrown@elliementalhealth.com or 248-308-5535.

For more information on Clarkston Area Youth Assistance visit https://caya-mi.org/ or call 248-623-4313.

Transcript

Max 0:02

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of CAYA Conversations. Today's discussion will be on grief, loss, and moving forward. With me today is Jason. Hello, everyone. Pleasure to be here. Yeah. So today I'll start off our conversation with what does grief look like and why is it different for everyone?

The Five Stages (DABDA; Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance) As Moving Tides

Little Deaths And Secondary Losses

Jason 0:23

So this is a this is a doozy of a question. The most common grief model we use is pretty familiar to everybody. We've got this fun little acronym as mental health is so familiar with, but um dabda. Okay, and and this is the the five-stage model of denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and lastly, acceptance. Um, and this this model is a really interesting thing because it's not phasic, it's it's transient. And so we have this kind of ability to move back and forth from one step to the next. You know, maybe one day I'm angry and then I'm in denial again, or I'm bargaining, now I'm depressed, and I'm back to anger. Um, and so we we will often see that acceptance does kind of represent that last leg of the grief race, but um there's a lot going on before that. And I think the way that we conceptualize grief is really important too. Um the the way I like to look at it is it's it's one way that our our bodies and our minds capture all of the unexpressed emotions that we've felt for a person, a situation. Um for me, that's been a restaurant sometimes, you know. Um I come from an existential background, not to use complicated language today, but um, one of my favorite things we covered was what they called the little deaths, um, where you know, my favorite shirt got ruined, right? Or um sometimes it's I'm at the McDonald's drive-thru and I can't figure out what to eat. Um when I ordered the double cheeseburger, I killed the chicken nuggets for today. And so I have to kind of accept little losses um just as much as I need to accept the big ones, losing a spouse or a child or uh a teacher in some cases. Um yeah, it's it's it, you know, sometimes I lose my watch and I'm like, oh goodness, you know, I'm not just grieving the the device itself, but maybe the money that I spent on it. And um, this is where we kind of discuss secondary losses. So we have the thing it is that we're grieving, and then everything that came with it. You know, when we lose a spouse, we don't just lose that person, we lose, you know, forgive the expression, but a warm body in the bed. We lose somebody for emotional support, maybe this person fixes my car or you know, uh any number of things. So we don't just grieve the thing, the person, the object itself. We we grieve all of these other facets of it as well.

Max 3:02

Yeah, that's such a great reminder about how complicated grief is, how there's so many things that go into it, and so many different complex relationships had with the thing, and um in other ways, just super difficult to to put into terms how there might be a specific way to go about it.

There Is No One Right Way

Triggers, Coping, And The Tide Metaphor

Jason 3:26

And that's that's one of the the fun ways we have these conversations in therapy, is I get this this question a lot, you know, is there a right way? You know, how should I be going about this whole grief thing? Um there is no right way. Uh my fun thing is I think there's a a handful of wrong ways to go about you know handling our grief. I think um when we look to the media, you know, and and we see people celebrating or we see people grieving often, that's paired with alcohol or another substance. And so this becomes a kind of a very close coping skill for us, and that can be a little dangerous. So, you know, I wouldn't say that it's immediately harmful, but these things are definitely things we want to keep an eye on. But like I said before, it's it it takes on many forms, and I like the tidal wave metaphor for this that uh, or not title wave, excuse me, the the title metaphor that these things kind of come and go like the tides. You know, we may have a day where we're feeling on top of the world, we're feeling really good, nothing can affect us, and then the next morning a bird flies by, and that bird reminds me of of this thing that I've lost. Um, and those triggers are different for everybody, and so you know, we we talk a lot about addressing triggers. Well, sometimes the triggers aren't going anywhere. We just have to learn how to cope with the emotions that arise when these triggers are presented to us.

Grief Beyond Death: Breakups And Moves

Max 4:57

Yeah, definitely. And you know, there's so many times that we view grief in particular as related to a death or related to someone potentially no longer being in our lives. I'm curious, how do I cope with when a breakup or a move or a friendship ending feels like grief as well?

Time, Meaning, And Refocusing On What Remains

Jason 5:22

Most of these things tend to. Um, you know, looking back at my own life, we move on, right? We we grow, and oftentimes that means we grow apart. And so in in some of these cases, um it's not so clear-cut that this person is is gone from existence, but maybe they're just out of reach. Um, and so there's definitely variability in the way that we look at these things, but um the one universal aspect of healing is it's time. It really is just time. We don't move mountains overnight. And when we think of the amount of time invested in the thing that it is that we're grieving, it often feels that grief is is proportional in its length to the investment we put into it. You know, if you you were a child of a parent for 30 years and you lose your parent, it's am I ever gonna heal from this? So I, you know, I don't know that there really is a finite finish line for everybody when it comes to grief, but but really it's important to understand how this grief shapes us. It it changes the way that we think, um, it draws our attention to our own mortality, you know, the fact that we have limited time here. And so I think if there's anything good that comes from it, it's the ability to kind of shift your focus uh away from the things that we've lost and and back towards what we still have and to be present with the things that we still have.

Staying Connected When It’s Hard

When Feelings Hit Out Of Nowhere

Max 6:56

Yeah, it's a great reminder about staying in touch with the great relationships that we currently have and things that while we're grieving a different relationship, we still have other things that can provide that kind of support. And and those relationships take work just by their own nature. And then when you're grieving, it's elevated, you know, it's it's that much more of a personal investment for you to pick up the phone, make the call, send a text, even, you know. Um, but but reaching out and and making sure that you stay in contact with support people again. What what we have left, right? Yeah. So I know we've already discussed how there can be certain triggers, like you mentioned earlier, a bird flies in the window. What helps on days when that the feelings hit hard out of nowhere?

Jason 7:50

Well, I think it's easy to start with the opposite. What hurts, right? Um, and it seems very protective in the moment, but oftentimes when we're confronted with these emotions, we we are triggered in that fight or flight response and we flee. We we run, we isolate. Um, the really, really challenging thing to do is is to stay there with it, to sit with those emotions and feel the feelings. Um, I hear a lot that we avoid these conversations out of fear of burdening other people with dealing with our pain. Um but when I think of of friends and family, I think that's exactly what we do. We're we're here for each other, we're here to support each other, especially through the hardest times in our lives. And and grief is often that. It's one of the hardest things that we've ever encountered. So definitely, I think, you know, maintain however you can to maintain that connection with other people. If if you feel like you've run that course with your your current circle, you know, there's online options, there's there's so many ways to to stay in touch with people. Um, but more importantly, to get feedback, right? On how are you doing, you know, to have those conversations that are really critical about your emotional state. I think it's easy to look at our society and and our focus on productivity. Things like grief tend to sap that from us, you know. We become very unproductive, if you will. And so fighting up against that, right? Finding that bravery in you to say, yeah, this isn't something I want to deal with, but if I want to get better, I have to. I have to confront this.

How To Support Someone Who’s Grieving

Max 9:37

Yeah. Now, how do I support someone else who is grieving without saying the wrong thing?

Jason 9:46

That's an excellent question. Um just like we said before, when when there's no right or wrong way to grieve, there's there's really no exact right way or wrong way to provide that support for others. I think it really kind of comes down to a preference. Um, I know sometimes I've seen things all over social media where somebody's going through a grief process and they say, Oh, you know, I'm so I'm so sick of hearing people say, I'm sorry for your loss, or, you know, thoughts and prayers, or or things of, you know, these kind of platitudes that we use. Um, or things will get better, you know, time heals all wounds, right? Um, but really just taking that time to ask the question, you know, it's it's not always obvious what you can do to be supportive of another person. And you're not always going to know the questions to ask to get that answer, but you can just outright say, you know what, I see that you're in pain, and if there's anything I can do to support you, to help you through this time, please tell me. You know, I would be happy to come just spend some time together and talk, or you know, maybe we'll just stare at the wall or whatever. Um, it doesn't always have to be kind of encapsulated in this goal-oriented, you know, kind of therapeutic ideal. Like sometimes it's just being present with another person, is it's all the difference to to treat that feeling of loneliness that might be triggered.

Max 11:14

Yeah, just seeing someone can be incredibly helpful for them to acknowledge the intense emotions that they're going through and just to feel seen can be therapeutic in itself.

No Hierarchy Of Pain

Jason 11:29

It really, really can. I think those those feelings of isolation as as we perceive them, they can become our reality as as we close ourselves off to other people. Maybe we're declining invitations to go out and be social because you know we're not feeling up to it. Um and that's okay too, of course. Sometimes we need time. I lost a cat, and it I'm still here a year later thinking about it often. And and you know, I talk about that too of of you know, oh, that feeling it's just a cat or it's just a shirt, or you know, we weren't together for that long. I shouldn't feel the things that I feel. Those are yours, those are your emotions. You you know, I it may sound weird, but you earned those. Yeah, you know, nobody can take that stuff away from you. They may not understand it, but that's where we communicate these things and and we can help bridge those gaps in understanding.

Max 12:24

Yeah, i t's almost interesting how people they tend to put a hierarchy on grief and things like that about what is worthy of being grieving for about a year or several years versus what's grieving worth grieving for a week or so.

What Healing And Acceptance Really Mean

Jason 12:41

I hear this about participants in group as well, right? Where they will finally make the move to go and and seek services and and and maybe it's a group format where where they're listening to other people share their losses and open up about their grief. And there's this kind of knee-jerk reaction of like, oh no, well, my thing isn't on their level. I'm here because I lost my dog. They lost two kids in a year. I can't I can't be in the same group as these people. Well, that may feel the same to you as much as these situations are are fundamentally different. Um, our our relationship to the thing we're grieving and our relationship with the emotions that we're feeling is very, very personal. We deserve that space on the floor just as much as everybody else does. So giving yourself that luxury of I'm in pain and that's okay, and I need help too. Definitely.

Max 13:39

And in a similar sentiment, what does healing actually mean?

Anger, Bargaining, And Not Rushing

Jason 13:45

I ultimately view healing as any movement or or progress in the direction of acceptance. And I find that to be a very challenging concept for people to work with acceptance. What what does that mean? I'm you know, this person passed away and so now I'm happy about it. Well, no, I don't think that's acceptance at all. In fact, I every loss I've ever had, I'm not happy about it. But I acknowledge the reality of the situation that the clock doesn't turn backwards. You know, any of those things that I held on to that I never expressed that now are presenting to me through grief, we often get the sense that, you know, it's it's too late. You know, they're gone, they're not here anymore, or you know, the the breakup happened, whatever, they moved away. But you always, always can say the things if you're if you're saying it in your car on your way to work or to an empty room or uh a classmate, you know, like I really wish I could have told this person how much I cared. And you know, maybe they didn't know that, or I feel like they didn't know that. That is a sign of healing, just developing your ability to confront your grief and talk about those things. You know, it may take a lot of time, but naturally we start to see those feelings at the very least wane a little bit. It may be years before they go away, they may never go away in some cases, but as as we move through this process, you know, we're we're going to have to really think inward and examine ourselves about the feelings that we're having. I know we had another topic on grief on uh anger, excuse me. Anger's in there. Anger's a part of the grief process. And it is, you know, I dec I describe it as like a self-medicating emotion where grief comes in and we we feel completely powerless, deflated, anger comes in, pumps me up. I feel strong, I feel, you know, I'm getting the neck thing, I feel tough, right? Um, and and when we kind of give in to that, that feeling of of power becomes rewarding for us. And so that that's usually a big hang up for people. Anger and bargaining. I'm frustrated because if I would have done this thing differently, I would feel differently. And we're we're playing in a world of an imagination. We have no idea what what would be different in that world that you describe, you know. So it is difficult, but making sure that you also don't rush this process. I think, you know, we we don't give this subject as much attention as it's deserved. Um, certainly not at the social level, right? I mean, I mean, bereavement time is is limited as it is, right? Um, I know when I was a student and I had my first loss, yeah, it was we had a week and it was get get your booty back in class, you know.

Max 16:50

Right.

When To Reach Out For Help

Jason 16:51

Um, but that doesn't mean that you're expected to have run the gamut to acceptance by now. There's there's a lot of back and forth along the way that you're gonna have to deal with. And having people to talk to about those things is crucial.

Max 17:09

So as someone going through grief and I'm thinking to myself, I'm not sure if my grief is enough for me to be reaching out for help or seeking services for for that help. When should I reach out for help if it feels like too much?

Finding The Right Group And Resources

Jason 17:34

I think anytime you feel stuck really with anything, right? If if you're dealing with challenging emotions, challenging relationships, challenging subjects in school, things that you feel like you cannot overcome, and particularly with grief, that once you're reaching that stuck point, that's when we call for help, you know. Um there's never a bad time to reach out for support. Obviously, your your level of preparedness and you know where you're at in this process is definitely gonna change how you engage. You know, if this happened yesterday, maybe I'm not gonna be all that willing to talk about it today. You know, maybe I should take that week or or maybe a couple of weeks, depending on on the scope of this laws, to process how I'm feeling before I try and talk about it. Um, but you know, when you when you do re reach that point, excuse me, there is, I mean, endless services available to you. Um, you know, there's online support groups, there's in-person support groups, there's individual support groups. Some of these services are at no cost to the consumer. You you you just call, they set you up, and you can go. Um, we can cover some of that stuff later on, but I think it's another sign that that maybe we're we're leading down the path of of needing some extra help is when those those isolated behaviors become a pattern, right? That the phone call of of a potential plan is now stressing me out. I'm feeling anxiety hearing that you know I have to turn this person down again, right? Um and and it it goes from being something that you choose to do to to being something that you default to. You know, you you kind of train your brain that it's dangerous, it's it's dangerous for me to go out. And again, it circles back to that idea of being a burden, you know. We really we don't want to to curse anybody with our our traumas. Um, but at the same time, I think that's the way out, you know. We we have to we have to develop the ability to communicate this stuff, even if it's a little socially taboo, even if it's a little abnormal still. I think this is how we've made some of the massive strides with mental health that we have today. Um, and it sounds like a lot to put that responsibility on the grieving, but we may not know by looking at you. You know, sometimes you gotta speak up. People don't know what they what they don't know. So learning to articulate those things and and building that comfort with the potential that somebody may not be the right person to talk to about it. And that's okay. Yeah, but that's not gonna be the last person you have to talk about it. So yeah, always making sure that um when when you reach those points where, you know, maybe I'm thinking of picking up the bottle, or maybe I'm thinking of uh isolating and sleeping for the whole week, you know, these these are it's okay that these things happen. It's okay to have these thoughts and feelings, but if we find ourselves just completely succumbing to that, we we gotta we gotta take that initiative to reach out.

Max 20:56

Yeah, and it can be so difficult to reach out, especially like you said, when we have an experience of reaching out and our needs aren't necessarily met.

Jason 21:05

Or we feel dismissed or, you know, invisible, shut down in some of these cases. Um yeah, like just back to that group example. I've had people come back from group and it's exactly what I was saying before, you know, like I'm in there to talk about this loss of mine, and somebody's in there talking about their cat. This this doesn't feel like the right group for me. And it may not be. That I think that's another cool, not cool, but um beautiful part of this area of mental health is you can find groups so highly specified to the type of loss that you're going through. So if if you're concerned that what you're bringing to this group is going to be intrusive or disruptive, there's another group out there with your name on it, you know. Absolutely.

Closing And Counseling Contact Info

Max 21:50

Yeah. Well, Jason, that does conclude our conversation today on grief. So I just want to thank you for joining me, and I want to thank our listeners for. Uh for joining along as well. We are from Giesken Counseling Services. If you would like to talk with us more or potentially set up an appointment, you can feel free to give us a call at 810 626 5191. You can also visit our website at www.gieskencounseling.com. That is spelled G I E S K E N.